elliemurasaki: Felicia Day as Charlie Bradbury on Supernatural, caption "dance like no-one is watching" (Supernatural dance like no one is watchi)our roads may be golden, or broken, or lost ([personal profile] elliemurasaki) wrote,
@ 2013-02-28 10:55 pm UTC
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How confused do you think you'd be by a story where, instead of gendered third-person singular pronouns (for this purpose, 'ze', 'ey', singular 'they', et al are gendered), the third singular pronouns are something like na/nan, sa/san, ta/tan, translating roughly to this-one, that-one, that-one-over-there? All gender-neutral, and which one refers to whom changes depending on the speaker.

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recessional: a white mug with the words "Fucking tea." (personal; don't even)


[personal profile] recessional
2013-03-01 04:15 am UTC (link)
In English? Utterly, at least without an extensive author's note, and it would be an impediment to my reading, as it would be more or less me having to translate from a foreign language into English as I read.

If it were acknolwedged to be a non-English construction that is somehow necessary to the setting (I've got a set of pronouns in [personal profile] signifier that are created because dragons are hermaphroditic) for a secondary-world or SFnal setting, I might bother to stick with it long enough for that eye-tripping "this is not English wth does it mean" period to wear off. I might not. It'd depend.

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elliemurasaki: Felicia Day as Charlie Bradbury on Supernatural, caption "dance like no-one is watching" (Supernatural dance like no one is watchi)


[personal profile] elliemurasaki
2013-03-01 05:27 am UTC (link)
Suppose the pronouns are 'this-one' and 'that-one' instead of me making shit up. Would that make it easier, or would it still be difficult?

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myaibou: (Just Fine)


[personal profile] myaibou
2013-03-01 09:36 pm UTC (link)
I'd think of "this-one" and "that-one" as speaker style, kind of like Yoda's backward-talking which probably wouldn't be an impediment to reading. Might even offer some characterization. (I think there was an alien race in one of the Star Wars Expanded Universe novels that used those pronouns, in fact. Can't remember which race or story, even, but I remember the style of speaking.)

That would work much better than words I've never seen before and would have to learn the meaning of as I go. Like others said, the work involved might make me give up more easily than familiar words used in a different way, like this-one and that-one.

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elliemurasaki: Felicia Day as Charlie Bradbury on Supernatural, caption "dance like no-one is watching" (Supernatural dance like no one is watchi)


[personal profile] elliemurasaki
2013-03-02 04:08 am UTC (link)
Okay, thank you!

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onyxlynx: 2 overlapped fans, with the word "Fan" superimposed (Fan)


[personal profile] onyxlynx
2013-03-01 04:18 am UTC (link)
You've found my a used copy of The Cook and the Carpenter, which did exactly that.

I wasn't confused at the time, but I wonder if that had to do with the expectations I brought to the book.

Also I think it past time to redo the experiment.

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elliemurasaki: Felicia Day as Charlie Bradbury on Supernatural, caption "dance like no-one is watching" (Supernatural dance like no one is watchi)


[personal profile] elliemurasaki
2013-03-01 05:27 am UTC (link)
I think I might have heard of that in passing but I certainly wasn't thinking of it. Thanks for the rec!

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[identity profile] dawn-bat.livejournal.com
2013-03-01 04:43 am UTC (link)
I think I would be fairly confused at trying to learn a new pronoun system while reading a story, especially in a text-only story that can't make use of hand gestures.
Would these new pronouns also be used for inanimate objects? Also, given the trouble people have with I vs. me, do you want to have a subject-object distinction? (Unless the forms ending in '-n' are the possessive forms? My, your, our, etc? Or would those be na's, sa's, ta's? Like y'all's?)
It might be less confusing if the new pronouns came from existing English words or patterns like ... this'un, that'un, and yon (from yonder)? Except those are kind of ugly.
Maybe something with h-/th- for the first two, like in here/there?
Or: these/those and this/that both involve vowel changes, so maybe ... niss/neeze/nawn?
Sorry for the flood of suggestions, I think you hit my linguistics-major button

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elliemurasaki: Felicia Day as Charlie Bradbury on Supernatural, caption "dance like no-one is watching" (Supernatural dance like no one is watchi)


[personal profile] elliemurasaki
2013-03-01 05:29 am UTC (link)
Linguistics is fascinating! No apology necessary.

I'm actually leaning towards using 'this-one' and 'that-one', exactly like that, subject and object, possessive 'this-one's' and 'that-one's'.

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sylvaine: Dark-haired person with black eyes & white pupils. ([gen] shared minds)


[personal profile] sylvaine
2013-03-01 04:52 am UTC (link)
I think it depends how much you're using them, tbh. If pronouns pop up regularly, I imagine I'd get used to it fairly quickly. But I know some writing styles hardly use pronouns at all, in which case it'd be confusing and make me wonder if it was just a typo if it only occurred once or twice.

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elliemurasaki: Felicia Day as Charlie Bradbury on Supernatural, caption "dance like no-one is watching" (Supernatural dance like no one is watchi)


[personal profile] elliemurasaki
2013-03-01 05:29 am UTC (link)
Good point, thanks.

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malkingrey: (Basket Girl)


[personal profile] malkingrey
2013-03-01 04:54 am UTC (link)
I don't know that I'd be confused, exactly -- but absent some compelling and counterbalancing virtues, I'd be inclined to put it into the category "noble experiment but not necessarily one that I want to keep on reading."

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elliemurasaki: Felicia Day as Charlie Bradbury on Supernatural, caption "dance like no-one is watching" (Supernatural dance like no one is watchi)


[personal profile] elliemurasaki
2013-03-01 05:29 am UTC (link)
And no one would require you to read it! I'm curious, though, why would it be a turn-off?

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malkingrey: (Basket Girl)


[personal profile] malkingrey
2013-03-01 05:39 am UTC (link)
Mostly, the fact that I'm lazy. Having to learn and keep track of a whole new set of pronouns in order to read and fully understand a particular story would make the whole thing closer to work than pleasure, at least for me.

For some people, on the other hand, the figuring-out-the-puzzle aspects of the story are what it's all about.

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elliemurasaki: Felicia Day as Charlie Bradbury on Supernatural, caption "dance like no-one is watching" (Supernatural dance like no one is watchi)


[personal profile] elliemurasaki
2013-03-01 05:41 am UTC (link)
Would my using 'this-one' and 'that-one' instead of making up shit improve your reading experience?

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malkingrey: (Basket Girl)


[personal profile] malkingrey
2013-03-01 06:09 am UTC (link)
Yes, definitely.

(Another thing that would make a difference for me would be whether the new pronouns were used in the dialogue only, or in the narration as well. Also, a shorter work can sustain more stylistic and linguistic experimentation than a longer one.)

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elliemurasaki: Felicia Day as Charlie Bradbury on Supernatural, caption "dance like no-one is watching" (Supernatural dance like no one is watchi)


[personal profile] elliemurasaki
2013-03-01 06:12 am UTC (link)
*nodnod* Thanks!

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embroiderama: (Matt Bomer - blue)


[personal profile] embroiderama
2013-03-01 05:25 am UTC (link)
I would find it very distracting from the story because instead of sinking down into the story I'd be focused on the pronouns.

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elliemurasaki: Felicia Day as Charlie Bradbury on Supernatural, caption "dance like no-one is watching" (Supernatural dance like no one is watchi)


[personal profile] elliemurasaki
2013-03-01 05:30 am UTC (link)
Would that still be true if the pronouns were 'this-one' and 'that-one' instead of me making shit up?

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embroiderama: (Book love)


[personal profile] embroiderama
2013-03-01 05:33 am UTC (link)
No, as long as it flowed with the pattern of speech that wouldn't push me out of the story.

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elliemurasaki: Felicia Day as Charlie Bradbury on Supernatural, caption "dance like no-one is watching" (Supernatural dance like no one is watchi)


[personal profile] elliemurasaki
2013-03-01 05:39 am UTC (link)
Thanks!

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2013-03-01 05:35 am UTC (link)
I'd probably stick with it until I got used to it, but then I love stories that do new things with language. Also I agree that it'd definitely be smoother if it was in an sfnal context where the new pronouns were explained early on as being a necessary borrowing from another language/culture or a deliberate coining for purposes of social engineering.

If it was non-sfnal and you didn't want to explicate your pronouns, I also agree that I'd rather see something that used English's existing flexibility to do something similar - a narrator who uses this, that, and t'other in place of all third-person pronouns would be odd, but I'd probably buy it at a quirk of voice/dialect without wanting a more complicated framework.

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elliemurasaki: Felicia Day as Charlie Bradbury on Supernatural, caption "dance like no-one is watching" (Supernatural dance like no one is watchi)


[personal profile] elliemurasaki
2013-03-01 05:40 am UTC (link)
*nodnod* Thanks!

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ysabetwordsmith: Cartoon of me in Wordsmith persona (neutral, wordsmith)

Ooo...


[personal profile] ysabetwordsmith
2013-03-01 09:04 am UTC (link)
I am actively intrigued by such stories. I have written stories with alternative pronouns. I collect alternative pronouns.

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elliemurasaki: Felicia Day as Charlie Bradbury on Supernatural, caption "dance like no-one is watching" (Supernatural dance like no one is watchi)

Re: Ooo...


[personal profile] elliemurasaki
2013-03-01 02:57 pm UTC (link)
\o/

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redsixwing: Picture shows a red-winged angel staring at a distant blue star. (sixwing)


[personal profile] redsixwing
2013-03-01 10:01 pm UTC (link)
Explain it once and I'm happy, and will add them to my collection of non-binary pronouns. :D

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silveradept: A kodoma with a trombone. The trombone is playing music, even though it is held in a rest position (Default, default, kodoma)


[personal profile] silveradept
2013-03-01 10:21 pm UTC (link)
I agree - if the concept gets explained well at the beginning, it won't be too hard to follow. And so long as there's a plural form (that includes the speaker and that excludes the speaker). Because "those" and "us" are important.

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elliemurasaki: Felicia Day as Charlie Bradbury on Supernatural, caption "dance like no-one is watching" (Supernatural dance like no one is watchi)


[personal profile] elliemurasaki
2013-03-02 04:11 am UTC (link)
Well, yes. My plan was I, we, you, you (or possibly y'all), and the nongendered this/that/th'other/these/those/th'others.

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silveradept: A kodoma with a trombone. The trombone is playing music, even though it is held in a rest position (Default, default, kodoma)


[personal profile] silveradept
2013-03-02 04:40 am UTC (link)
Ah. I misunderstood. Sorry. I think it will work out wonderfully.

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elliemurasaki: Felicia Day as Charlie Bradbury on Supernatural, caption "dance like no-one is watching" (Supernatural dance like no one is watchi)


[personal profile] elliemurasaki
2013-03-02 04:41 am UTC (link)
I hope so.

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elliemurasaki: Felicia Day as Charlie Bradbury on Supernatural, caption "dance like no-one is watching" (Supernatural dance like no one is watchi)


[personal profile] elliemurasaki
2013-03-02 04:09 am UTC (link)
:-D

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