elliemurasaki: (no subject)

our roads may be golden, or broken, or lost (

elliemurasaki) wrote,
@ 2013-02-05 12:19 am UTC

(no subject)

I wonder if it's possible to write a story with a genderfluid lead without calling attention to the fact except via changing pronouns (and possibly name—like, Alexandra for when the lead is female, Alex for when the lead is male or agender or bigender or whichever one I decide to go with) and without confusing the fuck out of the presumably-not-up-on-gender-minorities-except-maybe-trans-folk audience.

I mean, I could and probably should explain the concept in the story, but that's not as fun as seeing if the audience picks it up unprompted.

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	no subject ilyat 2013-02-05 05:43 am UTC (link)
	Could you play with perspective? First person, perhaps? I've tried writing exercises where pronouns were omitted entirely, and it's very difficult to do in third person without the overall text becoming cumbersome. Last edited 2013-02-05 05:45 am UTC (er wow, note to self; stop commenting when tired.) (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 2 comments) (Show 2 comments)

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elliemurasaki
2013-02-05 06:01 am UTC (link)

I was thinking third limited, actually. Alex goes to the grocery store, she picks up bananas, ze picks up crackers, she thinks things about rising prices that are inappropriate to say in front of the little kid sitting in the cart two feet over, ze picks up milk, she pays the cashier, ze goes home. Except more in-story time passes between each change. I have no idea how I could do this without using third-person pronouns to distinguish genders.

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	no subject julian_griffith 2013-02-06 12:32 am UTC (link)
	That's tougher. Emma Bull managed to hide Sparrow's gender or lack thereof from me for quite a bit, but it was first person Sparrow POV. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject sylvaine 2013-02-05 06:04 am UTC (link)
	Well I don't know if it's possible, but I would certainly love to see the attempt. It sounds like a great idea. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

	no subject elliemurasaki 2013-02-05 06:10 am UTC (link)
	:) (yipe) (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

Yes...

ysabetwordsmith
2013-02-05 08:07 am UTC (link)

... and in fact it can be even more subtle than that. I have some genderflexy characters who don't switch pronouns, or don't always switch. They may or may not explicitly describe themselves as genderfluid, queer, whatever. You can just write them as they are, and some readers will clock them and others won't.

For examples, see Quinn in Schrodinger's Heroes and Maryam Smith in The Steamsmith. You might also like "Crosswise," a poem about Quinn switching between masculine and feminine modes explicitly -- but without ever revealing the precise sex of the body.

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	Re: Yes... elliemurasaki 2013-02-05 08:32 am UTC (link)
	nodnod I meant the story I started an hour or so ago to be that story, but instead this story is all cisfolks (I think) and requires a trigger warning for sexual assault, wtf brain this is not what I wanted why do you do this to me. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 2 comments) (Show 2 comments)

	Re: Yes... ysabetwordsmith 2013-02-05 04:57 pm UTC (link)
	I know how it goes when characters run off and do what the heck they want instead of following the planned plot. But then again, I hate the idea of having to do all the work myself, so I'm willing to put up with this as the necessary price of having self-animate characters. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

Re: Yes...

elliemurasaki
2013-02-05 05:04 pm UTC (link)

Good point.

Not that I had much plot. I needed a thing to motivate the riddle game that's the key feature of Child 1, and the thing ended up being 'guy traps sisters with magic, one sister traps him back and challenges him to a magic contest', only the nature of the challenge requires the challenged to name the terms and he goes for riddle game.

...phrased like that the sexual assault sounds extraneous. Not sure whether to hope it is (because then I can be rid of it) or it isn't (because then I wouldn't have to rewrite). I'm leaning toward the latter, because I've got a bit of rape culture meta in there that I like.

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	no subject pauamma 2013-02-05 05:14 pm UTC (link)
	How well it works might depend on the readers' perception of the first name's implied gender (or set/range of genders). If you want to fuck with your readers' minds, you could give your character a first name that has different implied genders in different languages, like "Jean". (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 3 comments) (Show 3 comments)

	no subject elliemurasaki 2013-02-05 05:16 pm UTC (link)
	...huh. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 2 comments) (Show 2 comments)

	no subject pauamma 2013-02-05 05:36 pm UTC (link)
	Are you asking for elaboration? I'm not sure how to interpret your comment. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

	no subject elliemurasaki 2013-02-05 05:37 pm UTC (link)
	You had a thought I hadn't thought and am now thinking. It is a good thought. Thank you. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

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myaibou
2013-02-05 07:38 pm UTC (link)

I think there are probably a zillion different ways to be creative about it, but if you start using pronouns that are unfamiliar to the vast majority of the population, you're going to have to have an explanation in there somehow if you want your story to be accessible to a broader audience. Confusion can be fine if it's intentional and the reader gets to work their way through it at some point, but you can come off really pretentious using pronouns like "ze" as if everyone should understand what they mean. It can come off as, "This character is genderfluid, DUH," which rather than opening up readers to a new experience of what that means will instead build walls, like, "If you're not cool enough to get it, don't bother."

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	no subject dawn-bat.livejournal.com 2013-02-06 04:11 am UTC (link)
	Singular 'they' FTW. In doesn't jump of the page the same way 'ze' does, and in spoken language it even has a chance of going unnoticed. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 4 comments) (Show 4 comments)

	no subject elliemurasaki 2013-02-06 06:31 am UTC (link)
	Ooo. That's a thought. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 2 comments) (Show 2 comments)

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ilyat
2013-02-06 05:30 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, singular 'they' is one of my favorite fallbacks. I've also found that it is the least offensive (or most accepted) misuse of pronouns by those who are genderfluid, regardless as to whether or not you know their preferred pronouns, in that the speaker is consciously making an effort to include as many options as possible.

The only downside I've seen to using 'they' is that hard grammar cops will say that it's wrong to use a pronoun that is accepted as plural for singular use. These are the same people who will argue the literal usage of each word instead of its intent, though, and generally I wouldn't worry about them.

They is also used colloquially, verbally and in writing, in the US. It's not going to jump out at most readers, even those who aren't exposed or accustomed to the idea of genderfluidity.

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	no subject elliemurasaki 2013-02-06 05:35 pm UTC (link)
	It's been used as singular since Shakespeare at least. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject myaibou 2013-02-06 09:30 pm UTC (link)
	Great idea! That would definitely be less likely to stop a reader in their tracks and pull them out of the story. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject elliemurasaki 2013-02-06 06:29 am UTC (link)
	nodnod (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

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lliira
2013-02-06 09:16 pm UTC (link)

I adore singular "they". For one thing, it's natural to the grammar -- children use it all the time until they're told not to. It's been around for hundreds of years. And I have never seen it offend anyone except grammar police, and I don't care about offending them. Also I, personally, hate being referred to as "ze" and such -- I have a very strong gender identity, and it feels extremely de-feminizing. (Not rational, but there it is.) "They" does not feel like that at all.

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